Curse

lyra_song · Feb 28, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tromador

Arguably, the same could be said for PvP. You might be the most uber monk in HA, doesn't mean you can tank for toffee, but you still get the rank/fame etc on your noob warrior.

Agreed. This has been pointed out before. The fame system is quite flawed. Some people have suggested rank based on classes before. Regardless, this isn't a PvP arguement. This is still about PvE.

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This is the only thing im willing to agree to in so far as elites are concerned:

Beat the game with a Warrior.
You can make a brand new Warrior with the ability to buy Warrior elites only at skill trainers (with a price upcharge of course).

My reasoning is that, you are already proficient as a warrior if you beat the game, so you shouldn't need to relearn that.

However, if you want to make a monk, i will not agree to elite access for those.

cthulhu reborn · Feb 28, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Well Mr Tromador...you seem a bit on the negative side of life...don't take it so personally. I think it's unreasonable to request unlocking the map...so I expect that if people got their request granted the next unreasonable request (as I see it) will follow...but it is an expectation not a command.

Why do I think it unreasonable? What's the point in a continent if you can travel to all locations right away? Let's go straight to the last mission then and beat the game in one go. Cheapest greens you'll ever get. And if that's not the point in unlocking the locations on a map I don't see the point of unlocking locations at all.

I do not assume that people do not help other people but again I was not specifically speaking to you there. It was a mere suggestion of how one in general can give a mission another point to make it perhaps fun to play it again.

So lighten up dude

Tromador · Feb 28, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Why do I think it unreasonable? What's the point in a continent if you can travel to all locations right away?

Nope. That's not what is being suggested. Read the whole thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Let's go straight to the last mission then and beat the game in one go. Cheapest greens you'll ever get.

I can see there might be a need to moderate the giving away of endgame items if people skip the whole game - that would need consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

And if that's not the point in unlocking the locations on a map I don't see the point of unlocking locations at all.

Again, read the whole thread - and if you still don't see the point, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Tromador · Feb 28, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

You can make a brand new Warrior with the ability to buy Warrior elites only at skill trainers (with a price upcharge of course).

My reasoning is that, you are already proficient as a warrior if you beat the game, so you shouldn't need to relearn that.

However, if you want to make a monk, i will not agree to elite access for those.

I think we are actually sort of agreeing here. If I haven't had a monk before then I won't really have unlocked a pile of monk elites in any case and it would be stupid to be trying to use LoD before I understood what Orison was all about.

Let me put a scenario to you and see if you agree with this.

I make an Ele in Elona and get through to the end, defeating Abaddon. I decide (for whatever reason) that actually Ride the Lightning would be a great elite to use in DoA.

I don't want to have to get all through to Unwaking Waters, grinding 10K faction points on the way, just to get use that Elite in DoA, I take my 'sin who has Cantha, set as Secondary Ele (A/E) and go cap RtL and unlock it.

Now I can buy RtL for my Ele to use in DoA.

Agree/Disagree?

TabascoSauce · Feb 28, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn
Why do I think it unreasonable? What's the point in a continent if you can travel to all locations right away? Let's go straight to the last mission then and beat the game in one go.

Your implication is that new characters will have this capability. No one is saying that. New characters earn their wings.

We are all in agreement about that.

What we are saying is that experienced characters, who have either ascended or beaten a game, should have other campaigns unlocked so that they can go right to the endgame.

The choice is then up to the player as to whether they play through the campaign to get the skill points from the missions, or not.

People who have saved the world should not have to run FedEx Missions. Jedi Knights do not wade through stormtroopers.

Thx!
TabascoSauce

BryanM · Feb 28, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tromador

I can see there might be a need to moderate the giving away of endgame items if people skip the whole game - that would need consideration.

This one's the main issue here, that the item reward Factions and Nightfall give after beatage would have nil value, if there isn't a check on mission completion for them.

Perynne · Feb 28, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

I'm going to side with cthulhu reborn on this one.

Even if a character has to pass one campaign to unlock all other campaigns, it's just wrong. Any skipping to endgame missions just goes against the whole idea of it being a game. Again, quote: What's the point in a continent if you can travel to all locations right away?

Your character might have saved the world in one campaign, but that does not mean there aren't other countries in distress. Going through a campaign with a level 20 character by doing only main missions and quests doesn't take forever. I think that people need to learn a little patience here, rather than getting the game dumbed down to an "I want everything NOW!" attitude. Gamers will run out of things to play even quicker if shortcuts like these are implemented, and then we'll just have more complaints on the forum about the games being too boring.
If you don't feel like taking all of your characters through a campaign, then I guess you have too many characters or you are bored of the game.

If all you want are skills, a better idea would be to have elites buyable for your characters after you have unlocked them for your account.

TabascoSauce · Feb 28, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perynne
Going through a campaign with a level 20 character by doing only main missions and quests doesn't take forever. I think that people need to learn a little patience here, rather than getting the game dumbed down to an "I want everything NOW!" attitude.

I understand your point, and on some levels agree with it. But there is a growing problem with GW in that every Campaign compounds the time needed to get every character through the new campaign, as well as taking the new characters back to the old games to see how they fare.

If you do not see this as a problem now, try waiting for GW episode #6, with 12 characters x 6 campaigns = 72 fully played campaigns.

I do not think that ANet has fully thought this through.

You see an "Everything NOW!" attitude.

I see an "Everything within a reasonable time commitment that is not compounded every episodic release!" attitude.

Thx!
TabascoSauce

Loviatar · Feb 28, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

If you do not see this as a problem now, try waiting for GW episode #6, with 12 characters x 6 campaigns = 72 fully played campaigns.

I do not think that ANet has fully thought this through.

they have had many years to consider it.

i think that the number of players who have a compulsive obsession to get every character created through every chapter are such a tiny portion of the player base they will not be noticed.

also they seem to be quite selfish as well hailing the supposed delay of fresh content for most of us as good so they have more time for completing their obsession .

TabascoSauce · Feb 28, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar
also they seem to be quite selfish as well hailing the supposed delay of fresh content for most of us as good so they have more time for completing their obsession .

I have made no such statement. I am looking forward to the next episode as much as you.

Are you sure you read all the posts? Let me sum up again. Every episode released will have a compounding effect on the possible number of characters and campaigns they can play through.

You offer no reason as to why "playing through every campaign with every character" is bad, so evidently you have none to give. If that is the way people want to play, then they should have the possibility of doing exactly that.

Unfortunately, I do not have that option of everything everywhere. Time prevents me, as I do not have enough.

If you have a cogent reason as to why opening up towns and missions (with campaign-winning characters) will harm your play experience in GW, then please state it, and if it makes sense then I will be happy to come to common ground with you.

Thx!
TabascoSauce

Loviatar · Feb 28, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I have made no such statement. I am looking forward to the next episode as much as you.

i should have been more specific on that point. my apologies

that comes from all the *i am happy chapter 4 will be delayed* posts on the thread stating that it will be delayed going only on a vague *major update* note in the quarterly financial statement.

and the cat has decided it is his turn to play so i will do as my master says (he knows who is the boss)

quick note that with storage access to funds/crafting materials/runes in storage/useable higher damage hand me down weapons/etc the freshly created character already has a big head start .

now to the boss

cheers

lyra_song · Feb 28, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Unfortunately, I do not have that option of everything everywhere. Time prevents me, as I do not have enough.

If you have a cogent reason as to why opening up towns and missions (with campaign-winning characters) will harm your play experience in GW, then please state it, and if it makes sense then I will be happy to come to common ground with you.

Ya 40 hour work week + freelance work sucks.

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I keep seeing that question as to "why not?" and i keep asking "why?"

There is nothing "broken" to fix. This isn't an exploit. This is the game asking to be played through.

It is a matter of convenience to change it. That's not enough of a reason to change it.

Is such a change detrimental to MY experience? No. That would be silly. It would be convenient and easy.

Is such a change detrimental? Yes. Anet needs to ignore such demands no matter how many players ask for it because they need to draw the line of where the handouts go.

Ole Man Bourbon · Feb 28, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

It would be nice to see the missions and quests be unlocked for all characters upon first completions of them. I don't mean that you should be able to map-travel everywhere, but you should be able to run to a mission and just do it without doing all the linking quests to get to it.

TabascoSauce · Feb 28, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

It is a matter of convenience to change it. That's not enough of a reason to change it.

Is such a change detrimental to MY experience? No. That would be silly. It would be convenient and easy.

Is such a change detrimental? Yes. Anet needs to ignore such demands no matter how many players ask for it because they need to draw the line of where the handouts go.

I can write a novel here, but for brevity's sake consider the handout available now - the PvP kits. That is pretty convenient and easy, but it primarily benefits PvP, not PvE, excepting Heroes but that is another story.

If PvP gets a whopper of a handout, then you bet I am going to ask for a PvE handout! Who wouldnt? I am not going to go so far as to say they owe us anything, because they don't, but WOOHOO an equivalent boon for us PvE'rs would rock.

We can agree to disagree, and thank you for stating your opinion with dignity and respect - which is uncommon here.

Thx!
TabascoSauce

lyra_song · Mar 01, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I can write a novel here, but for brevity's sake consider the handout available now - the PvP kits. That is pretty convenient and easy, but it primarily benefits PvP, not PvE, excepting Heroes but that is another story.

If PvP gets a whopper of a handout, then you bet I am going to ask for a PvE handout! Who wouldnt? I am not going to go so far as to say they owe us anything, because they don't, but WOOHOO an equivalent boon for us PvE'rs would rock.

Yup the PvP kits. And Balthazar Faction. And PvP only characters. And PvP only accounts.

PvP unlock kits have to be paid for anyway, thats not as much as a handout as it is extortion.

What does it matter what PvP gets anyway? As you said yourself, hows that detrimental to your gameplay?

--------------------------

My stance is for PvP to be successful, PvPers need to have an equal level playing field and everyone must have access to the same skills.

This is why i advocated for the disabling armor changing in PvP (which was implemented) as well as enabling multiple weapon sets in PvP (which was also implemented) as well as removing overpowered weapons (which has been implemented, but is not yet complete).

I also petitioned Anet to enable PvE characters access to ALL unlocked items (skills/weapons/mods) in PvP arenas.

If Anet allowed my idea to happen, PvP and PvE characters would be completely equal in PvP.

The PvP unlock kits make me happy because it fulfills the idea of an even playing field in PvP by allowing newer players to catch up on skills for PvP.

But im going on a tangent.

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I do not disagree with the concept. I disagree with implementation. I want the option, but not the handout.

Thank you for disagreeing so feveredly Tabasco, i enjoy these discussions.

Perynne · Mar 01, 2007, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I understand your point, and on some levels agree with it. But there is a growing problem with GW in that every Campaign compounds the time needed to get every character through the new campaign, as well as taking the new characters back to the old games to see how they fare.

If you do not see this as a problem now, try waiting for GW episode #6, with 12 characters x 6 campaigns = 72 fully played campaigns.

I do not think that ANet has fully thought this through.

For the record, I have 5 characters on my account, only one of which has gotten through all of the three campaigns. The rest have barely made it past one campaign. My time is very limited as well, since I work 8-9 hours a day and barely ever have time to play on the weekends. Still, I'm not obsessed with playing them all through every single campaign all at once. This gives me more stuff to do, and if I get bored with one campaign, I can concentrate on getting another character through some other campaign.
You know, I think that's more what Anet had in mind, rather than having players breeze through a campaign. Having shortcuts and content unlocked for other characters just lessens the amount of content to be achieved by the gamer, and results in more and more people getting bored of the game faster. New chapters add to that content, and it's true that it will take longer to get each character through it, but the main idea is that it will keep people in the game. Breezing past content does not keep people in the game.
So yes, I think Anet has completely thought this through.

Quote:

i think that the number of players who have a compulsive obsession to get every character created through every chapter are such a tiny portion of the player base they will not be noticed.

Agreed.

Quote:

I can write a novel here, but for brevity's sake consider the handout available now - the PvP kits. That is pretty convenient and easy, but it primarily benefits PvP, not PvE, excepting Heroes but that is another story.

If PvP gets a whopper of a handout, then you bet I am going to ask for a PvE handout! Who wouldnt? I am not going to go so far as to say they owe us anything, because they don't, but WOOHOO an equivalent boon for us PvE'rs would rock.

As far as I've understood it, PvPers get these kits and things simply because they don't PvE, and to be able to be competitive or have any kind of new content to keep them happy they need it. Not giving PvPers things like this would just force them into PvE even if they don't like it.
How about I put it this way: Would you like it if you were forced into PvP just so you could cap some skills and get some items that would make a huge difference to your playing in PvE? I know I wouldn't like that. Having kits and stuff like this just separates PvE and PvP more from each other, letting gamers who enjoy one or the other to do so without needing to play something they don't like.
PvE kit would be nice, but hey, I consider each new chapter something of a PvE festival. There is TONS more content for PvE in each chapter compared to PvP, so there really isn't a need to get something extra.

Oh yeah, unless you want to breeze through everything and not bother playing like everyone else. I guess then Anet would need to make these kits to keep players interested in their game.

cthulhu reborn · Mar 01, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Even if the town unlocks would 'only' be for characters who have finished previous campaigns I certainly still feel it's a bad idea.

Consider this: I have 12 characters now. Chapter 4 will likely mean I will create 2 more characters. However, for my 12 existing characters it will mean that I would be able to go to the last mission and with minimum effort get the endgame greens/armours, providing that trend continues.

Besides that the whole point of PvE is that your characters gain items and such by deserving them. To do this town unlocks just is so non-PvE. Maybe those people should play PvP instead.

But I've learned one thing from this thread. It hust dawned on me why there is no endgame reward in tyria. Obviously with some runs and/or some fighting through, you only need to do the last 4 mission of the campaign to beat the game.

Consequently, I would argue that if the next chapter were to accomodate this way of thinking it would basically mean going back to a tyria style continent where you can be run or fight your way through short cuts and not get a reward at the end. The whole 'unlocking'idea is basically an old idea with a new label on it and that is an old issue.

But wait, as far as I know, in Elona you can be brought to Vabbi and as such most towns in the game are available if you know the way, without doing the missions.

Cacheelma · Mar 01, 2007, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

But wait, as far as I know, in Elona you can be brought to Vabbi and as such most towns in the game are available if you know the way, without doing the missions.

Be brought to Vabbi? You mean skipping Moddok Crevice mission?

Now, I would like to know how. As far as I know, the mission (and of course the explorable area of the mission) is the only connection to Vabbi area?

cthulhu reborn · Mar 01, 2007, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Actually if you have a friend who has done the worm mission he should be able to get you to the basalt grotto from the gate of desolation, with you lingering behind...from there you can go east to jennurs horde, tihark, kodash etc...

I must admit I haven't tried it but I was speaking to someone online who had apparently helped some people that way.

arcanemacabre · Mar 01, 2007, 07:26 AM // 07:26

If the concern for unlocking all towns once you complete a campaign is "easy-to-get endgame greens", then a simple solution is in order: You cannot recieve that campaign's endgame green unless you have completed all the missions for that campaign. Seems easy to program, and makes the most sense.

I'm curious about what would be so bad about this? Especially once another campaign is out, and so on, and so on. That will be a lot of ground to cover for just one character, let alone 8+. Maybe I'm missing "better" solutions, but this seems the best mentioned so far.